Damus
Marcus Hutchins :verified: profile picture
Marcus Hutchins :verified:
@Marcus Hutchins :verified:
It feels like Proton are being intentionally misleading in their statements. They know that most of their customers aren't familiar with how legal process actually works, so are happy to spread half-truths.

Under US law, a US law enforcement agency (LEA) typically has to apply for a subpoena or search warrant with a US court. The court is then responsible for deciding if the legal bar for search a request has been met, then either grants or denies it.

The problem is, if a company has no real US footprint (no US corporate entity, offices, servers, etc.), then a US court typically doesn't have the jurisdiction to compel the company to hand over customer data (except in some rare circumstances). Even if the court approved the warrant anyway, it wouldn't really be legally binding.

Which is why the Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT) exists. MLAT enables law enforcement agencies in one company to send requests for information to law enforcement agencies in another. Switzerland has such a treaty with the US. This means that the FBI can request that Swiss authorities hand over a Swiss company's data on their behalf.

Any country requesting information held by a company in a foreign jurisdiction would typically do so via MLAT. Which means from Proton's perspective, the legal request would appear to originate from their local law enforcement, not the FBI. Which they clearly understand based on their Reddit post.

Saying "we don't respond to legal requests from anywhere other than Swiss authorities" seems very intentionally worded to give the impression that the company does not cooperate with foreign law enforcement. But since it'd be the Swiss authorities handling any such requests, they'd have to comply, since as they admitted, they have to comply with local laws.

There is, however, some useful (but more nuanced) information here:

Firstly, MLAT requests are handled by local law enforcement according to local law. So if there is a difference between the law of the sending and recipient country, that might mean the MLAT request is denied. That probably doesn't mean much, because if you're on the FBI's radar, the chances are you did something that is also massively illegal in Switzerland too.

Secondly, they are 100% correct in saying that no other service provider is going to do any better. They're all beholden to local laws, and the ones that think they're not tend to get their doors blown off by SWAT like CyberBunker did. The only exception is if the company resides in a country which does not cooperate with US law enforcement (which Proton does not).

But the part that's extremely disingenuous is that the "we only respond to requests from the Swiss authorities". That statement is likely intended to imply they don't cooperate with law enforcement in any other countries, which is simply not true. Switzerland has MLAT agreements with over 30 counties.

People really need to understand that no company is going to shield you from the FBI (or any reputable law enforcement agency). They'll use misleading statements to make it sounds like they don't cooperate with law enforcement, but they do. They have to.

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Alexander The 1st · 13w
nostr:nprofile1qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyd968gmewwp6kyqpqnyqeg55nq5eudx30py8fgff82ensxt9j063w6chkzu4leyfjygwsfcp9u9 The thing that gets me is - is the company being requested by the MLAT allowed to challenge their local government on the legality of the request? Like how Apple famously refused to mak...
James Cridland · 13w
nostr:nprofile1qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyd968gmewwp6kyqpqnyqeg55nq5eudx30py8fgff82ensxt9j063w6chkzu4leyfjygwsfcp9u9 Not sure that Proton’s 100% true statement - that they only respond to requests from the Swiss authorities - is “intentionally misleading”. As you have outlined, it is literally ...
Diogo Constantino · 13w
nostr:nprofile1qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyd968gmewwp6kyqpqnyqeg55nq5eudx30py8fgff82ensxt9j063w6chkzu4leyfjygwsfcp9u9 that's not misleading it's actual thruth. Italia the Switz authoroties that are collaborating with the foreign authorities under the MLAT.
Bogdan Buduroiu · 13w
nostr:nprofile1qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyd968gmewwp6kyqpqnyqeg55nq5eudx30py8fgff82ensxt9j063w6chkzu4leyfjygwsfcp9u9 How is this misleading/half-truth? Mastodon witch hunts don't care about reality again: > Under Article 271 of the Swiss Criminal Code, Proton may not transmit any data to foreign aut...
Kerry Cooper · 13w
nostr:nprofile1qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyd968gmewwp6kyqpqnyqeg55nq5eudx30py8fgff82ensxt9j063w6chkzu4leyfjygwsfcp9u9 If you don’t like Proton, there’s always Google! I love how readily people criticize Proton even though it’s likely the best privacy ecosystem we have now. At the same time I wish ...
Marcus Hutchins :verified: · 13w
lol, this post really brought out all the insufferable fanboys. I'm not gonna pretend like I didn't know which of the 3 platforms I posted this on would have a bunch of people deeply personally offended by criticism of a corporation https://media.infosec.exchange/infosec.exchange/media_attachments/...
Tobin Baker · 13w
nostr:nprofile1qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyd968gmewwp6kyqpqnyqeg55nq5eudx30py8fgff82ensxt9j063w6chkzu4leyfjygwsfcp9u9 also the screenshotted response reads like AI
c0co · 13w
nostr:nprofile1qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyd968gmewwp6kyqpqnyqeg55nq5eudx30py8fgff82ensxt9j063w6chkzu4leyfjygwsfcp9u9 I think a lot of the time the fanboyish responses are a self-defense mechanism. They're not necessarily trying to defend proton as much as they are trying to defend their own coping like...