Damus
Seth For Privacy profile picture
Seth For Privacy
@Seth For Privacy
Summarizing my thoughts on ecash

For some reason this ecash trend seems to be gaining steam instead of going away, so I'll try my best to detail my thoughts on ecash into one post.

1. The incentives are broken

Ecash finds itself between a rock and a hard place. For users to trust the mint, they need to know that the people behind the mint are trustworthy. If the people running the mint reveal their identities (or even just nyms), they're a trivial target for regulators and law enforcement as it's clear a mint is an MSB.

If the people behind a mint don't reveal their identities or nyms, users of that mint are subject to trivial rug pulls with no recourse. Which do you prefer as a user? Mint operator rug pulls or government rug pulls?

If a mint had been targeted like Samourai Wallet was, instead of just a potential privacy loss, all users would have lost all of their Bitcoin.

2. Ecash is not "self-custodial"

For some reason this concept of ecash being "self-custodial" is a thing, merely because the tokens themselves are self-custodied (and require proper backups of seed phrases etc.) While the lines get a bit weird, it's important to separate two things:

1. The asset people want is Bitcoin, not ecash tokens.
2. The asset people give up custody on is Bitcoin.

The ecash tokens themselves are completely worthless IOUs without the Bitcoin behind them, so even if I can take custody of my ecash tokens, I have 100% given up custody of my sats to a third-party.

Because of this, talking about ecash as self-custodial is disingenuous -- no one wants empty IOUs, they want Bitcoin. When they use ecash they do not have custody of their Bitcoin.

3. Ecash still requires all of the hurdles of Bitcoin self-custody

The hardest hurdle for many people to adopting Bitcoin is the simple first step -- writing down 12 words and making sure not to lose them. With ecash you still have this single greatest barrier of entry as you must backup a seed phrase or secret in order to restore your ecash tokens.

4. There is no incentive for custodians to implement ecash

While a custodian could switch to ecash out of the goodness of their heart, the incentives are broken for custodians. Not only does ecash harm the UX their users are used to (not having to store a secret seed phrase), it also introduces additional infrastructure complexity. Instead of just running a database, now they have to run additional mint software to provide their users with tokens, and handle support cases where users lose their tokens.

In theory a custodian could just also store the seed phrase for their users, but then have we actually improved on custodians at all? They even have custody of the ecash tokens in that case.

5. Custody is a line that cannot be crossed

The core of what makes Bitcoin unique is that we can actually take custody of it ourselves, gaining immense freedom and self-sovereignty through a bit of personal responsibility. Even though I am a massive proponent of building better privacy tools, sacrificing custody to get better privacy is a non-option for me.

Surely we can do better and build privacy tools on top of Bitcoin (or directly into Bitcoin's consensus layer) that allow us to have both privacy and self-sovereignty via self-custody.

I will not give up custody of my Bitcoin, no matter what, and you shouldn't either. "Better custodians" are just custodians with extra steps, and still strip us of self-sovereignty and thus freedom.

6. Time is a more scarce resource than even Bitcoin

Even though I have been very outspoken on what I view as a pointless venture, I am not here to stop anyone from building what they enjoy in the space. Devs working on ecash are free to do so as of course I have no control over them, though I fear that time spent on improving custodians is time that we will not get back. It's clear that the US gov and many in the EU are seeking to ramp up their attacks on Bitcoin privacy and self-custody, and our time to build tools to route around them is growing shorter and shorter.

P.S. - None of what I write is a direct attack on any ecash dev, and I have immense respect and personal relationships with most of the people working on this stuff. Respect for an individual doesn't have to mean I agree with them on every avenue they pursue.

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Jonathan · 93w
Just my personal thoughts but I dont know anyone who thinks esats are better or as good as bitcoin. The worry is what are people going to use who can't afford to use base chain or L2 as fees increase. I don't agree with changes to the protocol or maybe not even L2 to solve these problems. As it...
Keychat · 93w
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tuco · 93w
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calle · 93w
Didn't read, never stopping (to build).
mandalorianhodl · 93w
ok Seth "showing my face on the biggest bitcoin podcast there is" for Privacy. stick to your shitcoin then shitcoiner
Tetsu Tamasi · 93w
Cry harder
Bitcoin and Clyde · 93w
Thanks for the thoughts and views, always good to think about things from multiple view points. πŸ€™πŸ½
VampireMJ · 93w
I disagree. It all about trade-offs. Ecash is great for small amounts and I'm pretty sure it will improve over time. To want everything perfect right now is high time preference and FIAT minded. Give some time to the Free market. They can rug pull my 5$ all they want, It's still cheaper then my cr...
Taoist Bitcoiner · 93w
There IS a perfect match though for private businesses and membership associations to operate Mints withoutt government or centralized rug pulls. Any organization, not serving the general public, can use eCash as an in-house accounting system. Perhaps as payroll systems that can be redeemed into LN ...
Matt · 93w
https://image.nostr.build/ce725f5d0746432d842dacc574538015b5f54adc34cf6d94a6d057d18a7b0cc9.jpg
Bitter21 · 93w
Thank you Seth for your thoughts. I totally get what you say and agree... but what about the idea to self custody your wealth in bitcoin and have a very small stake (let's say 100usd or less) in ecash for your daily purchases. This would already change completly the game because at the moment 99% ...
Xtr3m3hodl · 93w
The vast majority of people don't necessarily care about the real asset. If they did, usdt won't be as popular as it is today. So point 1 is kinda moot.
average_bitcoiner · 93w
TLDR; lots of strawman arguments 1. Gift cards and other rewards systems fit ecash very nicely. As for the other sentiment, you only want the allowed privacy then? Running any sort of digital privacy tool puts you in the State's cross hairs, so that means we should just not use them? 2. I've only s...
Danny, the cyber guy · 93w
I understand your perspective if you think of eCash as someone's sole method of interacting with Bitcoin. You're not going to have your life's savings in eCash, and if you are, well, let's just say that you'd be very unwise. There are three areas where ecash is extremely useful: 1) Replacement fo...
nobody · 93w
I’m going with on chain single sig and mutisig, lightning for pocket cash, geographical separation of keys/signers/residence. And martyrdom if necessary.
2b · 50w
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