Damus
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StackSats.IO
@stacksatsio
Finally, an interesting Bitcoin podcast!

It’s been a while since I’ve seen people argue in Bitcoin but @Saifedean Ammous managed to pull Saylor into an interesting conversation about credit and lending in Bitcoin.

Saylor apparently hasn’t fully thought through the implications of 21M and remains wedded to his fiat ideas.

He expects there to be yield on Bitcoin in future, but never says where it will come from in a completely fixed supply money.. “They’ll have to sell their assets to finance themselves!” - yeah no shit Michael!

The only way to generate yield in Bitcoin terms is to mismatch duration - literally run a Ponzi scheme. But Saylor expects that because the US Government will back the banks that this can’t go wrong 🤣🤣

Saif takes @allen line that capital will flow but HODLers will take equity rather than yield. This is the correct logical conclusion.

I’m not saying Saylor is completely wrong - I do see a future where banks will get into this space and lend and pay yield on Bitcoin.

But they WILL blow up. I don’t give a fuck if they’ve got their own nuclear arsenal let alone the full faith and credit of the US Government behind them, they WILL get out over their skis and they WILL be unable to fulfill their obligations at some point because they WILL greedily try to rehypothecate it in the meantime and no Government will be able to save them.

Saif and Allen both know the economy doesn’t require interest to function, that the world won’t grind to a halt without it - people will still spend money. Saylor just isn’t ready to let go of his statism (as evidenced earlier in the conversation) because he’s become accustomed to Billionaire privileges.

This is why I love #Bitcoin. You can be the CEO of the most successful public company of the past 4 years, all thanks to Bitcoin, and you will still be totally humbled by it unless you fully embrace the system as it is because it won’t be changing for your fiat games!

https://youtu.be/k7XhzXMSAPo
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techfeudalist · 89w
Yes, equity is the future. Not debt. Debt is a fiat concept. Ubiquitous debt is only possible because our money is inflationary. You don’t have to look far in history to see that’s true. Under a gold based system, lending at interest was prohibited in many cultures.
anonymous · 89w
Thanks for bringing this to my attention 👌🏻
Miron Henden ⚡️ · 89w
This will happen, while listening I was wondering what is some AI decides that they will join in the banking system with their BTC and just get 5% for what could be infinity. It will gather most of the BTC that flows in the banks. I don’t know. Food for thought. Anyone have an opinion on this?
anubisSonOfRa · 89w
Sounds very interesting. Will listen! Thanks!
penglunds · 89w
Will watch! But what do you mean by no interest? BTC will likely be deflationary, so I figure the nominal rate might be close to zero or a couple of %, but real rate will be higher. Don’t you think? Not saying borrowing will be a good idea.
penglunds · 89w
I’ve also been doing thought experiments with discount rates when valuing future cash flows. Anyone have any ideas about those?
Keychain · 89w
Great post!
TkayAR · 89w
بتفق معك. اعتقد مايكل نظرته مو مكتملة. وكان في عنده بعض الآراء غير الصحيحة. المحادثة بشكل عام كانت صعبة.
Ben Ewing · 89w
Take equity? What do you mean?
Big Suboss Bear · 89w
I liked Michael Saylors sentiment. He was aiming for everyone can win, there doesn't need to be us against them. Thats a nice target. Doesnt matter who is right or wrong, it will onboard more people and then they can figure out eventually whats right. Yeah I see the argument, where would money come ...
Jonathan · 89w
As someone who has learned a great deal from both saif and saylor I really appreciated this conversation. My main objection with saylors view is that he's trying to use decentralized money in a centralized world, and I don't think that works. He said that bitcoin is an asset that we issue capit...
Maxi💯Million · 89w
Disagree. Saylor said in a Hayekian ‘round about way’ that he agrees with Saifedean, and that his (Saylor) strategy is one of focusing on the positive benefits of bitcoin, rather than the negative impacts to all other politicized assets. I wouldn’t mistake omission for ignorance.
roll_the_dice · 89w
Saylor is so clearly a product of the USD dominated fiat system, he can't conceive of earning money, then saving the money, then spending the money. Which is what most of the world does and always has done. Where people have equity in their own businesses, and credit is rare. The USD based credit sy...
penglunds · 89w
Just watches the episode. I'm not sure what Michael doesn't understand about Saifdean's point. As far as I’m concerned, I think they're on the same page. Saifdean is just saying it's realistic that nominal interest rates will go to 0%, but that doesn't mean the real interest rate will be zero. Bec...
hh · 89w
Watching this ASAP. Before I do though, I fully agree. How on earth would they be able to generate "yields" with a finite supply? It's simply impossible and whoever says the opposite is either an idiot or a crook. I don't care who it is.
DrDaniel · 89w
This is the take I've waited for. Thank you. Most people on Twitter seem to think Saylor schooled Saif, but i think Saif has thought this through further than Saylor.
Ahi · 89w
Well put. nostr:nprofile1qqsyx708d0a8d2qt3ku75avjz8vshvlx0v3q97ygpnz0tllzqegxrtgpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5hsvge3uc highlited that the power of speculative attack diminishes when we approach bitcoins true value. Hyperbitcoinization is hard concept to grasp and Saylor is not there yet or he is playin...
𝕞ptf · 89w
Just like we haven't experienced a hard money economy for a long time, we haven't experienced an economy without usury either. Imagine borrowing bitcoin with bitcoin interest and the value keeps going up, it doesn't work. We move to a "saving" economy and living within your means and not consuming f...
Kevin · 89w
I will check it out
Mysth · 89w
I've listened to the full podcast, and the two mains points I got from it are : -Saylor is all about a "soft deleveraging" (paraphrasing Ray Dalio), and think we'll go from a FIAT standard to a FIAT+BTC Standard progressively, but that not much will change in the economy. He thinks BTC will basical...
nostrich · 89w
The big question remains, is MicroStrategy holding the keys? Or is it all parked at coinbase?
Time Chain · 89w
This was a very interesting podcast. A personal favorite despite the uncomfortable exchange between two great thinkers. To be fair to both sides, I think the BTC lending debate was viewed with different lenses. Saylor, viewing Bitcoin as collateral for fiat lending and Chase somehow providing a 5%...
Brett · 86w
I don’t think Saylor was saying, or thinks, that Bitcoin itself will be lent and paid back at interest. I could be wrong of course. I think he envisions a world that looks a lot like today. But instead of manhattan real estate being the best collateral and property, Bitcoin will be the pristine ...
Quantoshi.xyz · 84w
Saylor is correct right now. Eventually Saif will be right. It’s a game of chicken: only a fool can’t make a fantastic yield with today’s very low bitcoin valuation, but at steady state valuation, it’s gonna implode.