Damus
Joel profile picture
Joel
@Joel

testing this out

Relays (6)
  • wss://relay.damus.io/ – read & write
  • wss://relay.fountain.fm/ – read & write
  • wss://relay.primal.net/ – read & write
  • wss://nostr.wine/ – read & write
  • wss://nos.lol/ – read & write
  • wss://relay.snort.social/ – read & write

Recent Notes

Constant · 88w
Nostr, where your puritanical attitude towards cryptography dies in the name of dirty disgusting revolting pragmatism and convenience. Now, I have copy-pasted and cleartext .txt-file stored many bitc...
Joel profile picture
Good points. I think you're touching on something fundamental, and that is that on Nostr you have to accept that all accounts are throwaway. And act accordingly.

The architecture mandates this. Call it architecture-mandated psychology if you want a fancy phrase. Anyway FROST isn't a solution, it just highlights the problem from another direction.

Sadly, conventional micro-blogging is a bad use case for a world in which all accounts are throwaway. Conventional long-form blogging even worse.

So the biggest problem isn't the architecture. It's the current leading use case.
1
Constant · 84w
Errr if that is true, then Bitcoin is doomed as well because according to you, wallets are throwaway. Its just the problem of using pub/priv keypairs. They suck, they suck hard. And i do think FROST is a sollution
Joel profile picture
One thing that nags me testing Nostr out is I can never be sure if I'm seeing all the replies to an interesting post. I've setup a few clients, each with different (but pretty standard) relay setups, some overlapping and some not, and I've been using them to examine popular posts. Each client often presents a separate story of the life of a given post, some replies are here but not there, some are there but not here, some are missing certain types of replies (like quote replies), some aren't, like numbers can jump around a lot, and so on. I also realise there is filtering at the client level too, keeping out replies from new users and such, and that further complicates things. I hear this outbox implementation is slowly being adopted, but I don't think that really solves the problem to anywhere near the degree I would hope, as there are just too many variables at play. Maybe the idea is to just accept that—i.e when it comes to strangers' replies on strangers' posts you'll never really know how much of what you're seeing represents the totality of the story of the post?
2
Constant · 84w
Outbox relates to being able to get stuff from the people you follow, and is not related (per se) to what you are describing here. If i link your tweet on reddit, you dont see that discussion either. There is no global, it simply does not exist, period. Let it go
nostrich · 85w
Is it possible to make a Bluesky relay that includes only selected accounts? Why would I need 5 terabytes for that? Surely hosting all posts in NOSTR would be impossible too.
Joel profile picture
You could make a partial relay, but then anyone subscribed to that relay would only know about the posts, likes replies from other people also subscribed to it. But the post would still be out in the wild and able to be commented on by strangers, so there would be lots of missed reactions.

Bluesky's thinking is a lot of people would really hate it not knowing how many likes their post got, or if there are replies that they are not seeing. And posts can get a lot of replies and likes from strangers, and from there good conversations can start. The only way to ensure everyone sees 100% of the likes and replies on a post is if there is a single relay. I kind of agree. For example your reply is not showing up on clients Primal or Iris, but it is showing on Snort and Nostrudel. I would never have seen your reply if I didn't come to Snort to check out this same post after seeing it on Primal. That is very annoying, on Nostr I always suspect I'm missing interesting replies.
1
Joel · 85w
Context: I've setup a different mix of popular relays on each to try and simulate the experience of a group of users. But also each client does filtering too, so that adds another "can't be sure" layer.
Rod · 67w
Use a good password for sure
note1xm450...
Joel profile picture
Ah yeah, a bit mushy worded. I mean I could react to your note (repost, quote-post, straight-up reply) for the purpose of starting a conversation with my own gang about it, not wanting you to be notified. On X that doesn't work, since any user can see which posts of theirs have recently been reposted or quote posted by who, and of course everyone's notified of replies. I'd have to screenshot your post and then tag my gang in the post with the screenshot. On nostr, however, I can loop in my gang without having to screenshot, so they have the benefit of the original post and full context. To do that, when reacting I just use the relay or set of relays my gang/community uses, and which I know you're not subscribed to since these are niche relays just for us. (In both cases I accept that it's all public behind the scenes and you might find out somehow or other, but that's fine, as long as you're not notified in the normal way.). In other words I want to fork your post on purpose, not by accident. Call it awareness-forking. If my client sees me doing that and thinks "I better divulge those niche relays so the poster will know about them", and then they're declared in the signed event, and then you see that notification and jump in to our gang chat to ask why we're being so rude, then I'm not going to be happy about that, and I go back to screenshotting, which is a bummer, because this awareness-forking seemed like a cool nostr feature that legacy social media doesn't have. This all can be solved via client outbox settings, like the ability to mark certain relays as do not divulge, etc. For what it's worth I see this ability to fork posts as something with a lot of utility. It's cool that posts can go in different directions. (The goal of outbox is of course to prevent awareness forking by keeping the original poster aware.) But if it's agreed this is a feature and not a bug then it means clients need to get even smarter, and that's a struggle.
note1gd6sm...
Joel profile picture
Can't force clients to respect outbox, and if even if all clients did some users might not want to be forced by their client to publish (and reveal their IP address) to unknown relays and demand to be given a choice. Other thing is there are two types of missed replies, Type A is replies that the replying party does not want the poster to be aware of (think screenshots of X posts with chatter underneath). Type B is posts that the replying party assumes/hopes the poster is aware of but actually the poster isn't aware and never will be. On nostr many users want "Type A Native" (no screenshotting, referencing the actual live post), and that complicates things, since you need a way for users to opt for Type A Native which isn't misunderstood by the client to be Type B.
mleku · 85w
yeah, the problem is, just like blockchains with their terabytes of chain data (eg ethereum, steem, etc) that the entire proposition of it being decentralised REQUIRES that you don't make the cost of ...
Joel profile picture
Well yeah, but on the other hand nostr's current censorship resistance, in my opinion, is due in very large part to it being off the radar, small—and not the architecture. I get the whack-a-mole argument, but I feel people are greatly exaggerating the difficulty of playing whack-a-mole in this day and age. Any government, sufficiently motivated and resourced, could make it the protocol so painful to make practical use of that, while it would still hobble along for the die-hards, the nostr vision as it stands now would be dead. (In other words it'd be a heck of a lot easier to cripple nostr than people are assuming.) Rather than censorship resistance I see the real value of nostr being in portability, though for very specific use cases that are not affected by nostr's limitations.
Joel profile picture
Test time! I'm going to post this note here on Primal with Relay set A and then use some non-following test accounts to like it in a few other clients with certain other test relay sets, including non-overlapping, and then let's see how many of those likes total up here.