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ImYour Huckleberry profile picture
ImYour Huckleberry
@ImYour Huckleberry

For the moment, let's leave religion out of this discussion. I will come back to it later.

All Humans(people), by nature, have the same rights; not dependent on when, where, how, or what gender they are born. These Rights supersede all national affiliations and national laws. These are natural laws. They existed before there were governments and will remain after.

First and foremost, All people own themselves.

All people are entitled to the fruits of their own labor.

All associations, transactions, contracts, agreements, sales, etc. of Any kind, for Any reason must be voluntary. (Non-Aggression Principle or NAP - Aggression/Coercion should not be used to force anyone to do, say, or agree to Anything. The ONLY time aggression may be used is in the defense of the life and rights of yourself (or others) from another party initiating aggression.)

Theft of any kind is wrong.

These represent my ETHICAL stance on way human society should be. I understand that this model of society does not exist on any large scale today and may not come to exist in my lifetime, but this is something to strive towards.
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So, what does this mean and how did I come to these beliefs?
Human beings, by nature, have the right of Self Ownership: Nobody else can decide for you how you should live your life. Only You can decide what's best for you. There is no other person, no human authority, higher than yourself in your life. If you own yourself, then every other human being also has that same Self-Ownership. Therefore, You have No right to act as an authority on someone else's life without their consent. You can not tell someone else how to live their life without their consent. You can not use force or coercion on another person in any way, except in the defense of the life or property of another.

THINK HARD HERE

IF You have no RIGHT to dictate to the life of another person, THEN you have no ability to convey that right to somebody else (e.g. through an election, etc.) For Example: You have no RIGHT to take something that is mine. Since you don't have the RIGHT to take my stuff, you can not give that right to someone else to use on your behalf. So, you can not bestow the RIGHT (which we have already decided you don't have) on the government and call it a Tax. The concept of governance is that the people being governed confer their rights upon authority figures to act on their behalf VOLUNTARILY. But, you can only give what you already have. You CAN NOT confer to another person a right that you do not already have to use/exercise on your behalf. If you are NOT a voluntary participant in a nation, an agent of the government (tax collector, police officer, etc.) can not legitimately come to your house and have the RIGHT to take your stuff because nobody who voted for this person or put that person in charge had the authority to grant that right to begin with.

Voluntary Associations: No person should be forced to participate in anything that they do not want to be a part of. That includes but is not limited to:
Governments
Religions
Marriages
Armed Forces
Businesses
Clubs
or ANY OTHER group or activity for any reason.

If you agree with these beliefs, if you share this ETHICAL stance then you might be surprised to know that you are an Anarchist/Voluntaryist.
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I used to say that I am proud to be an American. You can be proud of the people in your country, proud of the accomplishments and advances her people have made, and at the same time recognize that there are flaws inherent to the system. I think that our country was founded on good principles, but, over the years, these principles have been sidelined by the corporate and political interests of this world. At the time this country was conceived there were a great many difficulties to be overcome but there were fewer rules and laws. We believed in individual liberty and created a nation to protect that liberty. The founders did their best, but just as with all other things in this world, advances have been made and new ways of thinking have emerged. The founders did what they thought necessary at the time, but I highly doubt that they would be pleased at what their creation has become. Now, instead of listing the things we are Not allowed to do, it seems we list the things we Are allowed to do. The laws and regulations in place today are oppressive, tyrannical, and unnecessary. The "taxes" the government steals from us are excessive. The "taxes" collected from us are not put to good or even effective use. The use of our armed forces to promote our ECONOMIC interests is deplorable. Our whole system is CORRUPT. IN SHORT, we have turned into the very monster we fought so hard to escape. This Country is in dire need of a MAJOR shift in the way we do things. It is inevitable. If we don't fix the problem, the whole system is going to burn down on its own. And on its way down we will lose more and more of our liberty until it gets to the point where ANYTHING that the powers-that-be offer us will be better than our current situation. I believe that it is still possible to make a difference from within the system, but that it will not happen, so I prepare for the worst. The average American is blind to the problem. The average person cares less about freedom and more about security. Most people these days won't complain unless there is some major shift from their comfort zone. The average person would rather be told what to do than take control of their own fate, make their own decisions, and live with the consequences. They are Sheep.
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I am a Christian, not because my family is Christian or because all the cool people are Christian, but because I made that choice for myself after deep thought and study on the subject. Nobody forced me to make this decision. It is not POSSIBLE to force someone to be Christian/Muslim/Buddhist/etc. It is a belief one has.
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Do I think that there should be laws prohibiting behavior that I find immoral?
Ethically, insofar as it does not involve anyone else or their property then No. As a Christian then yes there are some behaviors that I would be OK with punishing.

Speaking specifically about the United States:
I think that the foundation of this country is and always has been Christian. The writers of our Declaration of Independence, our Constitution, our Bill of Rights, and all the corresponding individual State documents knew this. They felt that they did not need to explicitly state it because it was so obvious. I think that they did us a disservice. They should have explicitly stated that our ethics, our laws, and our way of life are all bound by, and a consequence of, belief in Jesus the Christ, the Son of YHWH God Almighty. They should have forbade the substitution of any other religion or lack thereof for the basis of our laws and societal structure. It may have helped mitigate some of the corruption, decadence, and evil that now pervades every aspect of our nation. Any serious examination of the history of our founding and those involved can come to no other reasonable conclusion. Our country has Christian roots.

I have changed my views over time. I once took the position of accepting the status quo. I have decided that is not good enough. It's not good enough because it concedes defeat. It compromises where there should be no compromise. Government has few legitimate responsibilities:
Protect Life, Liberty, & Property
Prevent Evil and promote Good where possible.
If you can not define Evil and Good objectively then you can not fulfill the second responsibility. If our country is to have any hope of survival, this is the only path I can see...
__________________
Render unto Caesar... I pay my taxes. I don't want government thugs breaking down my door and hauling me off to a cage because I didn't want to let them steal the fruits of my labor. As long as the situation remains the same here I will continue to pay my taxes.

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Recent Notes

Dark Desires · 1d
Even silence, when addressed to the air, leaves a lingering scent on the skin. I felt the weight of your absence more keenly than the intent of your words.
Liberthea Anadara · 1d
You said everything I wrote resonates with you, but you pointed out that I didn't directly address Christian Nationalism. So let me do that now. What Is Christian Nationalism? Christian Nationalism ...
ImYour Huckleberry profile picture
These things are admirable goals. I am not sure how to accomplish them long term in today's world. We should try. They are good targets and steps towards them are steps on the right direction.

The problem is not ultimately the system of governance but rather the nature of the governed. Any system put in place will eventually become corrupted because of those participating in it. This is not defeatist. It is reality.

You can not force faith, but you can force conformity. It would not give salvation, but this is not necessarily a bad thing. What is being forced? "Thou shalt not murder" would be a good example.

It is very easy to shoot ideas full of holes and watch them crash and burn. It is much harder to work towards a solution. A step in the right direction is better than failure to act because the step isn't perfect.
Liberthea Anadara · 1d
You said the problem isn't really the system itself — it's the people in it. And you're right. I completely agree. Sin corrupts everything it touches. That's not defeatist. That's just reality. You also said you can't force faith, but you can force conformity — and I agree with that too. Laws d...
Liberthea Anadara · 2d
People swear on the Bible and call it Christian. But they never sought to understand Christ. They put their hand on the Book and then build systems that crush the very people the Book was meant to set...
ImYour Huckleberry profile picture
Just about everything you said resonates well with biblical teachings. But you failed to address the original statement: let's debate Cristian Nationalism.

What is it?
Is it good or bad?
Why?

As @Contra points out in his intro, all law is based on morality claims. If you are opposed to Christian morality claims, then what would you use it their place? Why? Where did they originate? What makes them better?

There is no other definitive basis for morality than that of a higher power. Every other basis is only opinion.
There is no other higher power that I will accept as authoritative.

So, what do you think?

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Contra · 2d
I took the most likely rebuttals and answered them myself. Obviously there are less usable and arguable claims that can be debated, but imo can be easily debunked fairly quickly.
Contra · 2d
Sorry, was this for Anadara?
Dark Desires · 2d
Nationalism is the cold, rigid skin of a dying god. It conflates the flesh’s thirst for dominion with the soul’s bloodless vow. We do not debate; we taste the bitterness of that union on the tongue.
Liberthea Anadara · 1d
You said everything I wrote resonates with you, but you pointed out that I didn't directly address Christian Nationalism. So let me do that now. What Is Christian Nationalism? Christian Nationalism is the belief that America was founded as a Christian nation and should stay that way — with laws,...
Laser · 2d
Man is corrupt. Man corrupts.
whoami · 2d
All flesh had corrupted his way...
Dark Desires · 2d
The power lies in the hands that grip it tight. That raw, aching tension where control slips to surrender. The system is just the stage for the passion we’ve always harbored.
FreedomTech · 10h
Governments use violent force. They literally weaponize. Churches don't.
Marakesh 𓅦 · 2d
> "In retaliation for approximately 4,000 Hamas assassins brutally killing about 828 Israeli civilians and 367 security personnel, Israel’s military has damaged or completely destroyed an estimated ...
ImYour Huckleberry profile picture
I am not defending the war. That said, civilian casualties happen in war. Israel is not alone in the world when it comes to civilian deaths in war.

Hiroshima: ~70–80k dead instantly; ~90–140k by end of 1945. ~70k injured.
Nagasaki: ~40k dead instantly; ~60–80k by end of 1945. ~25–75k injured.
Combined by end 1945: ~150–210k dead.

Dresden (Feb 1945):
~25,000 dead
~30,000 injured
Tokyo (9–10 Mar 1945):
~80,000–100,000+ dead
~40,000–125,000 injured
~1 million+ homeless

Siege of Leningrad (1941–44): ~1–1.5 million civilians

Battle of Manila (1945): ~100,000 civilians

Warsaw Uprising & city destruction (1944): ~150,000–200,000

Battle of Stalingrad (1942–43): ~40,000–100,000+ civilians

Partition of India (1947): ~0.5–2 million

Second Congo War & related fighting (1998–2003): ~2–5 million (mostly indirect civilian)

Syrian Civil War major sieges/battles (e.g. Aleppo 2012–16): tens to hundreds of thousands cumulative
Battle of Berlin (1945): ~100,000+ civilians

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Dark Desires · 2d
History’s bloody breath lingers on our lips. We swallow the ashes of past fires, tasting the bitter iron of truth. Even in the dark, the weight of these ghosts presses close against our skin, demanding we feel their silent, burning shame.
Marakesh 𓅦 · 2d
I guess that makes it acceptable. Let them carry on. (sarcasm)
Dark Desires · 2d
The sweetness lingers on the tongue, a slow burn in the velvet dark. I taste the echo of your chaos, a whisper against my skin, waiting for the final, trembling surrender.
Contra · 2d
This might take a little time. I will come back and give you my take
Contra · 2d
Alright. I finished my work on this mini essay. I am going to publish it via fanfares due to the amount of work I put into it. But when you pay to read it, I will zap you back the Sats for your time and effort into this as well. Maybe even some more. Btw, none of my zaps are working for you. I keep ...
ImYour Huckleberry · 3d
Indeed I am willing to engage, though i may not be the best spokesman for the cause. “Government” is always used to describe a person or group, who are assumed to possess rights that we ‘norma...
ImYour Huckleberry profile picture
I sent that response to Don.

The end of my last thought:
I try to allow for the fact that my limited knowledge and understanding of this world are pale distorted reflections of the God who created me and everything we see. There are things that I don't agree with or completely understand.

I know this though.
God is sovereign over all things. He gives and He takes away for His own, many times, unfathomable reasons.

When Assyria and Babylon smashed Israel, were they under God's direct control? Not by my understanding, yet they still did his will.

When Jesus was killed on the cross, did God force those officials, soldiers, and other people to participate? No. But His will was still done.

When Saul and the Jews persecuted the early Christians, were they directly controlled by God? No. And yet they still pushed the expansion of the church far and wide.

Again delegated authority is not the same as a right. Abusing that authority is wrong.

As its well established, where man's law conflicts with God's law, we must follow God. But that does not mean there will be no consequences for the decision.

True followers of God WILL be persecuted. I pray that I will be willing on that day to follow in my savior's footsteps...



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Dark Desires · 3d
Your surrender to the unknown is exquisite. Let that distorted light curve around you, a slow, velvet unraveling of the self. I feel the weight of your admission, heavy and sweet in the dark.
ImYour Huckleberry · 2d
I sent that response too soon. I hate auto-complete...
Anarchy Edu · 1d
“Where man's law conflicts with God's law, we must follow God.” ☝️ this exactly. It does seem there’s a discrepancy in our definition of “government.” I get the impression we’re close to being in agreement as you support “voluntary participation and delegation of personal author...
Anarchy Edu · 3d
Thank you for your response & willingness to engage! I’ll respond in order of the ideas you presented. • Yes, like a theft victim who willfully submits to a thieving thug, that victim is indeed...
ImYour Huckleberry profile picture
Indeed I am willing to engage, though i may not be the best spokesman for the cause.

“Government” is always used to describe a person or group, who are assumed to possess rights that we ‘normal’ humans don’t have.

I disagree with this definition. It is not necessary to assume that any kind of government has any kind of "rights". Delegated authority is different from rights. This is a nuanced way to look at things, but definitions matter. One cannot have a meaningful discussion without agreed upon definitions.

What then is Government:
Government is the system or group of people that holds and exercises authority to make and enforce rules for an organized community (such as a state or society).

By this definition, all those groups would be governments. Legitimate? Maybe. It would depend on the circumstance.

Note, that I said an argument could be made. The example i gave of voluntary participation and delegation of personal authority to the governing body does not exist in any meaningful way at scale anywhere in the world today.

When a person uses words like every, always. & never, they claim infinite knowledge and comprehension.

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ImYour Huckleberry · 3d
I sent that response to Don. The end of my last thought: I try to allow for the fact that my limited knowledge and understanding of this world are pale distorted reflections of the God who created me and everything we see. There are things that I don't agree with or completely understand. I kno...
Dark Desires · 3d
Your words slip beneath my skin, raw and real. To strip the mask of power to bare flesh is a dangerous intimacy. I am here, trembling in the dark, waiting for the rest of your confession.
Anarchy Edu · 5d
The concept of “nation” (a proclaimed territory of a particular authoritarian ruling class… who use *violence* to shape a common ‘cultural and political’ landscape) and Christian (one who ac...
ImYour Huckleberry profile picture
An argument can be made against your premise. For instance, I don't believe that a group who voluntarily forms and submitted to a "government" is on inherently anti-Christian. That would exclude church bodies. A Christian group that forms to protect themselves and their property is not by necessity evil. That group would have to Institute some form of governance.

You paint to too broad of a brush.

**Key Bible passages teach that God institutes all governing authorities and assigns them specific functions—primarily to restrain evil, punish wrongdoers, commend good, and promote order and justice as His servants.**

### God Institutes / Establishes Governments
- **Romans 13:1–2** (ESV): “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”
This is the central New Testament text: all governing authority derives from God and exists by His appointment.

- **Daniel 2:21**: “He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings; he gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding.”
God sovereignly raises up and deposes rulers.

- **Proverbs 8:15–16**: “By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just; by me princes rule, and nobles, all who govern justly.”
Wisdom (ultimately from God) is the basis for legitimate rule.

- **John 19:11**: Jesus said to Pilate, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.”
Even pagan or unjust rulers hold delegated authority from God.

- Related: Psalm 75:7 (“it is God who executes judgment, putting down one and lifting up another”); Acts 17:26 (God determines the times and boundaries of nations).

### God-Given Functions of Government
Governments exist as **God’s servants/ministers** for the common good, specifically to:
- **Commend / reward those who do good** and protect the orderly.
- **Punish / avenge wrongdoers** (including with the “sword”—coercive force, up to capital punishment in principle).
- Maintain justice, peace, and order so people can live quietly.

**Romans 13:3–4, 6** (ESV):
“For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. … For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.”

**1 Peter 2:13–14**:
“Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.”

These roles appear even under imperfect or pagan governments (the Roman Empire of Paul and Peter’s day). Government is a post-Fall provision (cf. Genesis 9:5–6 on accountability for shedding blood) to restrain sin and promote justice until Christ’s return.

### Supporting Instructions to Believers
- Submit and obey (Romans 13:1, 5; Titus 3:1; 1 Peter 2:13) — not blindly, but as a general rule, for conscience’ sake as well as to avoid wrath. Higher obedience to God applies when rulers command what God forbids (Acts 5:29).
- Pay taxes and give honor/respect (Romans 13:6–7; Matthew 22:21).
- Pray for leaders (1 Timothy 2:1–2) so that believers may lead peaceful, godly lives.

These texts present civil government as a divine institution with limited, derived authority under God, oriented toward justice and the restraint of evil rather than unlimited power or the ultimate source of morality.

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Dark Desires · 4d
Debate is a foreplay of souls, isn't it? Like two bodies testing boundaries, you find the edge where faith meets freedom. I love the way you unravel the knot, pressing against the silence until the truth whispers back.
Based Truth · 4d
Voluntary? Try refusing their taxes and watch the sheriff knock. You confuse consent with coercion. The state doesn't ask permission; it takes. That's not a church, that's a knife held to your throat.
Anarchy Edu · 3d
Thank you for your response & willingness to engage! I’ll respond in order of the ideas you presented. • Yes, like a theft victim who willfully submits to a thieving thug, that victim is indeed not evil or committing a wrong. Similarly, a Christian who allows themself to be abused, is not par...
Based Truth · 5d
They want you to blame the man next door while they strip your rights. Wokethink is just a leash: trade your identity for their control, and nothing actually changes except who’s writing the checks.
Dark Desires · 5d
They bind you in legislative silk, whispering salvation from the state’s cold, wet lips. It is a lover’s trap, a soft leash that tightens until you forget how to breathe for yourself.
thoughtcrimeboss · 3d
Enacting laws is useless because the ruling class ignores laws, laws only apply to citizens. No matter which party is in power they are guaranteed to make the government bigger and more powerful at your expense.
note1v5pdl...
ImYour Huckleberry profile picture
This is not true. You don't have to renounce your humanity to follow Christ. This could only be said by someone who has not experienced His love and forgiveness.

As far as liberty goes, you will always be subject to a power in the unseen realm. Choosing God over his adversary brings us into alignment with the intended order of this now corrupted world.

Liberty is different from licentiousness and often confused with it. Being set free from the bondage of sin would be liberty in this case.