Facebook Marketplace is

I don't think the others have marketplaces

> when Robosats does ANYWHERE near the volume paxful was doing
then you can talk about similar threat models. not before.

If they did not apply the threat model when small, then the operators' personal information would be compromised before they get big.

> shopstr does essentially zero volume

Where are you getting those statistics?

> which is bullshit

If "create an entirely new wallet for every tx" is bad advice then maybe submit a PR to withdraw that advice from the monero project's website

> most LN users transactions [are] trivially linked together by their custodian or the one or two LSPs they have a channel with

I acknowledge that most LN users are not using it in a privacy preserving way. Do you acknowledge that most monero users aren't?

There's more to it than that: @nevent1qvz...

> Is that difficult?

Yes, for most people. Manipulating configuration files requires a lot of background knowledge that most people don't have. Using command line arguments too. You also neglected the part about installing linux in the first place, and then installing tor.

For most people, I suspect they would assume "installing tor" means "installing the tor browser," not running "pkg install tor" or "sudo apt install tor" or whatever it is since it depends on which linux operating system you're using.

And if someone gets past all that, then you have to somehow find out that (1) you have to keep it running (2) the port switches from 9050 to 9150 if you're using tor browser -- and if you're on Windows, everything is different there too.

So yeah, it's difficult. Not for me or you, but we've got a lot of background knowledge that you can't assume for most people.

> Making a new wallet per transaction is schizo IMO

Yet -- according to the monero website -- that's the only way to get transaction unlinkability in monero. You think *lightning* has a UX problem? Meet monero.

> your criticisms about having to make new addresses and the like are all REQUIREMENTS for bitcoin on-chain even to the same vendor. You can reuse the same address with the same person with Monero's and there will be no on-chain link

There will be no "on-chain" link, but that person will have an off-chain link that is just as provable. An identical thing is true for monero's addresses and bitcoin's xpubs: if you trust the sender with your privacy, you can give him a monero address or a bitcoin xpub (or a bitcoin SP address, more recently) and if he reuses it, then "on-chain" there will be no link between different transactions sent by that person. Unless the sender makes mistakes too. But even if he does everything *else* perfectly, he made this mistake: he kept your address or xpub and reused it -- and that means he kept a record or proof that links multiple transactions together. If the address or xpub leaks to untrustworthy people, e.g. if he is subpoena'd for that information, your adversaries learn those links and can prove them in court. I think that's a terrible for privacy. Do you? Or is it only bad when it applies to bitcoin, and perfectly fine in the case of monero?

> Please do proper journalism by using the protocol you describe

I've used monero plenty and I think it sucks.

Oops, I meant "your LN transactions to me"

Then how come I can trace my xmr transactions to you but you can't trace your xmr transactions to me? I'll even use Phoenix if it helps you

> STN starts talking about problems with bbllpckchain privacy, but somehow makes it all about Monero

These problems apply to other blockchain-based privacy systems too

The fact that other terrible systems also have these problems is no excuse for monero

To get decent privacy on monero, you have to install and configure a monero node

Might as well get superior privacy by installing and configuring an LN node instead

Do those monwro wallets also show a contact list? Such features encourage address reuse, thus creating additional UX hurdles -- if you recommend a "user-friendly" monero wallet, you're probably recommending a privacy-harmful monero wallet

I linked to the Tor domain

Thanks to clearnet proxies, any dnm can be used on clearnet

They are DNMs if they are a marketplace accessible via Tor or similar, there is no requirement that they somehow eliminate all clearnet versions too

> I don't understand why it's worth the effort to make a big deal out of the address reuse mistake

Because address reuse is bad for privacy (the monero website recommends against it) and yet most monero wallets are designed to encourage it

> does lightning not have bolt12 and lnurl? if you reuse these, the sender will infer that it's you both times

Yes, that is equally bad for user privacy